Don’t Focus on NCFIC’s View of Reformed Rap and Miss Their Poor Theology and Practice

01 Dec

Update with links to explanations and apologies regarding NCFIC & Rap:

I am sure most have watched the video of a panel discussion recently posted online by NCFIC. If you have, or even if not, you might find this summary post on the whole “Holy Hip Hop Squabble”, helpful:

A Round-Up of the Holy Hip Hop Squabble

I am writing this from a very different perspective. One that is of great concern.

Here is what I recently posted on a FB comment thread:

” I wrote a three part series in 2005 which were published & later put on my blog. They are still some of the most read items on my blog. Since then many others have raised similar concerns regarding NCFIC’s theology & practice. Yet these warnings have been mostly ignored. Now all of a sudden they say some stupid things about ‘Reformed Rap’ & everyone flips out. I find this troubling. Are we most significantly concerned about doctrine or our music preferences? Again, everything that was said on the video of the panel is nonsense. Of course it is, it came from NCFIC. But there are far greater concerns with them than their silly, ignorant opinions on rap! Sorry to rant… I think I’ll blog this.”

Here’s my concern…

There have been several people since 2005 who have tried to draw attention to serious errors in both the theology and practice of NCFIC (and other related ministries), but they have been largely ignored. Yet, what cannot be ignored is their opinions on rap!? Is sound doctrine on the family, ecclesiology, ect. not important? Are we really only meant to step up to the keyboard and fight over a group’s view of a genre of music while for years we have ignored other theological errors.

Here are some historical links:

In 2006, after receiving a phone call from a Vision Forum representative and not subsequently removing my blog posts from the Internet I received a signed letter from their board indicating their plan to take me to court for slander and justifying their right to do this as Christians because they had concluded that I was not a Christian and therefore they would not be in violation of Biblical principles.

In September 2006, I moved to New Zealand with my family. They have never followed through on this preposterous threat.

Tonight (14 March 2014) I received a letter from Scott Brown with NCFIC asking for a copy of the letter I mention above. He was on the board of Vision forum in 2006 and he has no recollection of this letter being sent to me.

I have looked everywhere on my computer for the above letter (it would have been six years ago) and although I have found two other letters from the “Vision Forum Research Team” I am unable to locate the above mentioned letter.

Therefore I am willing to conclude that my memory of the above is incorrect and therefore my statement above was wrong. I ask those whom I implicated in the above to forgive me for making such a statement without verifying my memory. That was unwise and has resulted in me publishing an accusation that now seems to be invalid. For this I am grieved.

If you don’t think there is a connection between Vision Forum ( and NCIFC then see these:

If you are not familiar with the latest controversy surrounding Doug Phillips and Vision Forum see these posts:

For further theological critiques of NCFIC and related ministries see these:

A helpful collection from 2009-2011

From 2013


NCFIC has released an apology for one of the more ridiculous statements made on the video here. I will leave it to others to say whether this apology is really gets to the point. I think they still don’t get it.

Yet, their view of rap isn’t my greatest concern.

For years this group has been characterised by legalism, an unbiblical view of the role of husband/father, a unbiblical view of the church, an unbiblical practice of church life and condemning of those who differ from them.

For years these errors have been pointed out by many from several different denominations and all online.

For years these theological critiques have been generally ignored, with some (Voddie Baucham and Joel Beeke being prime examples) even continuing to minister among them despite being personally entreated not to.

Why? Why have the above admonitions not been taken seriously? Why hasn’t this group been more widely and strongly condemned for their doctrinal errors?

Why do we only now see a huge Internet fire storm when these guys say a bunch of silly things about rap?

I am not sure why. However, I am sure these other errors in doctrine and practice are far more dangerous and damaging than their view on rap!


6 responses to “Don’t Focus on NCFIC’s View of Reformed Rap and Miss Their Poor Theology and Practice

  1. Rodney

    05/12/2013 at 5:35 pm

    Thank You for your interesting and insightful critique of the NCFIC. I beleive that your concern warrant more investigation and the links you provide may help in this area. As far as the firestorm concerning Holy Hip Hop. I beleive many are up arms about their comment now and not before is because most of us have never hear of this group or most of the men on panel. I was only aware of Joel Beeke. But because of this firestorm many will now be aware of this group and seek to learn more about them. That is how I found your blog. So this may be blessing in disguise. If all or most of your concern are true. I don’t know because I have not look at all of your links. But I do know that what these men share in about 11 mins showed me some of their legalism.

    Thanks and blessing,

  2. Bob Bixby

    06/12/2013 at 12:23 pm

    Joe, I’m going to highlight this on my blog, but isn’t Voddie Baucham a part of the NCFIC? You seem to say that he isn’t? He certainly propagates the same views.

    • Joe Fleener

      06/12/2013 at 12:29 pm


      I am not certain whether Baucham is “officially” part of NCFIC or not. In “Family Driven” faith he positively encourages people to make use of their resources and he has spoken at their conferences. He certainly advocates similar lines of thinking and practice.


  3. Joe Fleener

    08/05/2015 at 6:12 am

    A helpful critique of Baucham’s “Family Driven Faith

    A Critique of Family Driven Faith: Part One – Blogs » The Expositors Seminary

    A Critique of Family Driven Faith: Part Two – Blogs » The Expositors Seminary

    A Critique of Family Driven Faith: Part Three – Blogs » The Expositors Seminary


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